Do I pay CSA if I live outside the UK and work for a company based in the Middle East?

June 27, 2012

Support going up by 3.

I split with my ex 7 years ago. since then I have paid support every month.

I am now married and have two children with my wife.

My ex has now got a solicitor involved, She wants 15% of my salary or £600 per month.

I earn just over £5000 per month. I think £600 for 1 nine year old is way too much. If I knew the money would be spent on my daughter I wouldnt hesitate it to pay it. However I know that my daughter will not get this spent on her.

I work out of the country for 8 months a year. I have 2 x 2 month stints at home. Of my time at home my daughter stays with me the whole time.

I do not pay tax in the UK or any country. I do not have a bank account in the UK either.

The ship I work on is managed by a management company based in Monaco. However I do not work for them they do however pay my salary into my account. My employer is based in the middle east.

Her solicitor thinks I work for this company in Monaco and has informed me that Monaco is a participating country in Enforcing Maintenance Orders.

Could anyone offer any advice as to where I stand on this.

As I stated at the start of this I have paid support everymonth since we split.

Thanks
Shaun

Comments

  • Sally says:

    Hi Shaun

    I can give you any definite answers but this link my help you.

    http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/ChildMaintenance/Arrangingchildmaintenance/DG_199081

    if the link doesn’t work look up direct.gov.uk and follow the description above….

    Good Luck!

  • rach says:

    i do know that you are out of the jurisdiction of the csa! and to be honest even if you were in a remo country there is still no guarantee that that country would enforce any orders! to be honest as your not even resident there i dont think they could although im not sure. i think her solicitor is just trying to scare you into paying her what she wants if i were you i would put a sensible maintenance offer on the table and let her take it or leave it

  • Shaun says:

    Hi Sally and Rach,

    Thank you both for taking the time to answer my dilema.

    However currently CSA are not involved. It is her solicitor stating they will take me to to court to try and enforce payments.

    I have spoken to CSA and CEMC.

    CSA Told me they would not get involved based on the information I gave them (same as above)
    CEMC told me that only CSA can enforce maintenance payments and not the court. Thus they are not interested either.

    I sent a letter to my ex’s solicitor last week stating:
    Increase of £50 per month. total to £250 pcm
    I would buy school uniforms for the start of a new academic year (2x)
    I would buy stationary equipment at the start of the academic year
    I would give my daughter equivelent to £100 once a year for the holiday she goes on with her mother.
    I would continue to fund out of school activities my daughter goes on with my parents (skiing lessons dance lesson ect ect)

    In return for these I wanted the following:
    my parents to have my daughter every weekend while I am away (something thats been going on since I started this job over 2 yrs ago)
    that my daughter would continue to stay with during my leave (again been going on since I started this job)
    My ex had to attend AA I had proof a couple of yrs ago durin ga lost and expensive custody battle that she had a drinking problem.

    I have also found out that she went on a 24hr bender and then stayed in bed for 2 days leaving her boyfriend to look after my daughter and forfeiting time with his own children.

    Thanks
    Shaun

  • Shaun says:

    oh i forgot i would continue to pay 80 pound per month into my daughters bank account.

  • rach says:

    sounds like you are being very reasonable to me hope it all goes well

  • Carol says:

    You are being very reasonable. CSA would not get involved. How does her solicitor expect to get your wages information?

    I take it you have not got your own solicitor involved and are dealing with them yourself. It would seem that, if this is the case, her solicitor is trying to scare you into complying and agreeing to her unreasonable demands. Here is a link which may help you about reciprocal agreements

    http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/reciprocal-enforcement-of-maintenance-orders

  • Shaun says:

    Hi Carol,

    No I have not got my own solicitor involved just yet.
    I am tryin gto avoid the expense. Last time I used solicitors for my custody battle it cost me over 5k and I still lost even after proving my ex had a drink problem and only used my daughter to get get at me. Shes not really interested in our daughter shes just a pawn for her to use against my and my family….

  • chall says:

    Quote Shaun: I have 2 x 2 month stints at home. Of my time at home my daughter stays with me the whole time.

    Is your home and new family resident in the UK?

    Have the CSA been involved at any time?

    How old is your daughter?

    Your ex’s solicitor is correct, Monaco IS a REMO participating country.

    Your terms and conditions as per your post on June 27th, 2012 5:02 pm, if your ex and your child consider such ‘reasonable’ that’s fine.
    However, if your ex disagree’s you need to remember negotiation is a two way street and she is as much entitled to her terms and conditions as you are.
    If you are unable to agree between yourselves, there’s a good possibility a third party may make the decisions for you.

    Being ‘reasonable’, there are two sides to every story…
    Unlike rach or Carol maybe the child’s mother may consider it unreasonable that their daughter has to stay at the NRP’s parents EVERY weekend, whilst he’s away and/or stays with the NRP for 2 months at a time twice a year when he’s at home. How ‘reasonable’ either would consider the suggestions of such if it personally effected them and their’s?

    chall ~ afairercsaforall

  • rach says:

    why would it be considered so UNreasonable for a child to stay at its fathers house for 2 months of the year? its not HER child its THEIRS, why would it be totally unreasonable for child to stay at grandparents every weekend???? obviously if child enjoys going why cant she;/he? if father was at home then it would be probable that child would stay with father every weekend anyway!!!!!.

    Dont you dare assume that if it was my circumstances i would find it unreasonable ok!!!!!

  • rach says:

    after all everything should be done in the interests of the child!! maintaining family relationships IS in the interest of the child ! or dont you agree chall ???????

  • rach says:

    angers me that the mothers rights and personal feelings should always come before the fathers!

  • Shaun says:

    Chall,

    Yes my home and my family reside in the UK
    CSA Have not been involved, at least I have not had any letters from them
    My daughter is 9
    I know Monaco is a REMO state, as previously stated I do not live their nor work there. The ship I work is managed by a company based in Monaco.

    I doubt she would have a case against my parents having my daughter every weekend or even every other weekend. For the last two years on more occasions than not my daughter has stayed their. Same as when I am on leave shes stayed with me.

    Also for the last 7 years we have been split up my ex has accepted what I pay. Its only now that I am married and have children with my wife that she s jelous and thats what this is about….

  • Carol says:

    Chall I find that a bit unfair in all honesty. Shaun’s post already says his parents have his child anyway at weekends when he is away so really that is not an issue as his child knows the grandparents, he obviously wants it all sorted now legally in writing which is completely acceptable.

    Looking at what Shaun is prepared to pay is reasonable. You are right negotiation is a 2 way street. I think this % thing and woman/pwc being unreasonable and always wanting more is becoming ridiculous. £600 per month for one child? Bring back the Court system where both salaries are looked at, and also the expenses of the child.

    Shaun good luck and I realise why you would not get solicitors involved. It is costly to often not get much further than you are already. My partner and I have been down that road to not get much further than we did on our own.

  • chall says:

    Totally agree rach, ‘maintaining family relationships IS in the interest of the child!’.
    In which case if the child in this case has a second set of grand parents, wouldn’t a relationship with them also be worth maintaining?

    Two points I’ve obviously totally missed;
    1) Any reference from the OP relating to what ‘the child enjoys’
    2) Any acknowledgement by the OP for the mothers rights and personal feelings
    ___________________________________________

    Carol, it’s a bit unfair taking one side of a story as gospel.
    We criticise the CSA for doing it.. ! Is this really any different?

    Although, ‘Shaun’s post already says his parents have his child anyway at weekends when he is away so really that is not an issue as his child knows the grandparents’.
    Your assuming it’s not an issue for the mother and/or child, but you don’t really know.
    ___________________________________________

    Quote Shaun; ‘I doubt she would have a case against my parents having my daughter every weekend or even every other weekend.

    Shaun, as UK law stands at present, Grandparents have no automatic rights in respect of their grandchildren. Even if they were awarded contact via the court, there is no guarantee contact would equal the time your parents currently spend with your daughter.

    Unfortunately, I’m unable to make unbiased opinion.
    As you claim to your income is £60k + pa, I assume a few grand for some legal advice may be money well spent.

    chall ~ afairercsaforall

  • Shaun says:

    Chall,

    in answer to your two points:
    1 – She enjoys staying with me when I am on leave and has stated she would much prefer to live with me and my wife even whilst I am away. She also enjoys going to stay at my parents whilst I am away as she gets interacted with. Something she lacks at home with her mother. I do know she doesnt want to take ice skating lessons yet her mother is insists and also wanted me to fund it. I would if my daughter wanted to go.

    2- Screw the mothers rights, she lost those as far as I am concerned when she dragged my daughter out of bed and dumped her on my doorstep at 11pm on a night when my daughter was 3 years old not once or twice but three times. This resulted in me getting an emergency residency order and trying for custody which I lost and cost me over 5k (at time I was earning 18k a year) so you can see why I am reluctant to engage with solicitors.
    Personal feeling, she just wants to keep my daughter to use as a pawn to hurt both myself and my family and has done since we seperated over 7 years ago. Oh and it was her that ended the relationship not me…

    As for my ex’s parents seeing my daughter well, Her father lives in Spain with his girlfriend which is where they go on holiday each year hence my offer of £100 spending money for this. Her mother has just moved back from Bulgaria after the death of her husband. My daughter has stayed there a couple of times. As she is 9 year old my parents let her make up her own mind as to whether my daughter goes to their house or not. So long as its her decision and not one being forced upon her.

    I am aware that UK law doesnt automatically give grand parents rights to access but surly the fact my daughter has been their nearly every weekend except when I am home should have some sway in this?

    Regardless of what I earn whether its 6k or 600k a year my arguement is that it does not cost £600 per month to keep one child.
    My ex never complained when I was paying £80 a month more than what CSA would have taken when I was in a low paying job.

    As I have seen around the internet when these things start to happen, the first piece of advise given is to stop any payments and put them to one side. For back payments.
    That is exactly what I have done, I told my ex this and the text I got back was to make sure both myself and my family gave my daughter the biggest hug possible as we would never see her again until I paid what SHE felt was a reasonable amount. Thus meaning its her terms or nothing, not willing to negotiate….

  • chall says:

    Shaun,

    Thank you for taking the time to offer more details regarding the situation.

    Was the advice you refer to, pertaining to after the CSA had become involved?
    I’m not sure how sensible it is withholding child maintenance if this goes to court. Your ex’s solicitor would have a field day with such a titbit and I doubt any Judge will consider you have not paid such because it’s best for your daughter.

    Personally, I think you both need to be realistic adults, stop pushing each other’s buttons and try to instigate an agreement that will work for the 3 of you. Talk to each other, negotiation is a two way street, you both need to give a bit and take a bit.

    After paying tax etc in the UK, your £60k would net around £41,410 pa OR £797 pw which is the figure the CSA would use, if they had the jurisdiction.
    Why don’t you input your details into the CSA calculator, including the other children living in your household and overnight stays (be fair though, these only count for CS purpose as a reduction when the NRP is with the child over night) http://www.cmoptions.org/en/calculator/calculator.asp see what the calculation is, and go from there. If your ex will agree to work on net figures, you could still offer to buy school uniforms and pay for out of school activities etc.

    If meeting to discuss this with your ex is likely to be difficult, write to her, give her your calculations and explain there is no guarantee that either of you will be successful if it goes to court, and the only real winners will be the solicitors.

    chall

  • Shaun says:

    Chall,

    CSA have not and in their words will not become involved. I meant this is what is offered as advice to people who have a private agreement and then CSA become involved.

    My net pay and gros pay are the same as I do not pay tax.

    Meeting with my ex is impossible at the moment as I am in the south of France working. Writing to my ex will be futile she will just pass it on to her solicitor to try and use as evidence.

    Coming to a fair agreement with my ex will also be futile In her words she just wants what she is entitled to by law which is 15%

    However. If she does win I am going to make sure she gets a court a order for my parents to have weekend access and myself to have my daughter for the period I am on leave else out of spite I will quit my job because I know my daughter wont even get £200 a month spent on her which is what I have been giving my ex.

    Your are correct in saying that the only real winners here will be the solicitors, another reason I do not want to engage one just yet.

  • chall says:

    Shaun,

    I realise, due to your current employment circumstances the CSA can not be involved and your pay is not taxed. If you were paid by a UK company, the CSA would be able to become involved, and their calculation would be based on your net income.

    The 15% she refers to is the current rate for 1 QC via the CSA, which would be based on net income if you were under the jurisdiction of the CSA – Which your not, but it’s a good starting point.

    Take a look at http://www.cmoptions.org/en/toolbox/negotiations.asp#page=page-1 it may give you some ideas / help make the first step.

    Child maintenance is regular, reliable financial support that helps towards a child’s everyday living costs. It is an emotive subject and it won’t be easy. But it’s probably be going to be easier and less financially draining for you both than going to court.

    chall

  • Sally says:

    Hi Shaun

    Does the company you work for have a HR/Personnel department? if so, it might be worth your while askig them the question? If they have been ivolved with (for other employees) or had communications with the CSA then it is possible they will provide the information asked of them by your ex’s solicitor.

    The one and only thing I know for FACT is that the CSA do not assess what a ‘reasonable’ amount of money is to bring up a child, they go on % of NRP income… regardless of what is actually spent on the child or whether the NRP can afford it (due to their own outgoings/expenditure). So whether you earn £100 or £1000 a week, they will expect a % of it. They also don’t consider the money you spend on your child (outwith child maintenance)…. they only consider your net income…. it’s a rediculous formula to assess child maintenance!

    Good luck, please keep us posted!

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