CSA money isn’t going to the right person

February 16, 2013

My partner and I live in a small 3 bedroomed house that we pay a mortgage on, I have two older children that live with me and as they are both on Apprenticeships they pay minimal board to us.

My partners has a 16 year old daughter who although is supposed to be under joint custody spent the majority of her time living with her mother in the house that was signed over to her in full.

Although the father paid a sum of over £10,000 to his ex in lieu of maintence that would be required until his daughter turned 18, the mother contacted CSA and he now has to pay directly from his wage as private arrangements can not be taken into account, this is all fine.

The problem is the mother has now moved 50miles away to live with a new boyfriend and his 2 children in a 3bedroom council rented property, whilst renting her house out.

Leaving her daughter to live with 70 year family friend Monday to Friday so she can still attend college, at weekends the daughter had to sleep on the couch in the new house with little or no privacy. We have now managed to fit a fold up bed in our lounge and put blinds up to the doors etc to make a private space and the daughter will now live with us 3 out of 4 weekends. Just staying with the mother 2 days a month.

The main problem is CSA will not re divert the maintence to the family friend who gets no money from the mother for looking after her daughter, we can not afford to pay the friend as we have to pay the mother!

How is this a fair and just system?????

Comments

  • Jo says:

    You need to get in contact with the child benefit office to get the benefit transfered either to yourselves or to the friend, csa will only have a case with the person who chb is payable to, in your case the mother, who no longer qualifies as the pwc. If you can do this then both parents will be liable to pay csa to the friend or the mother to you if you csn take the child in.

  • lisa says:

    If you find out Child benefit is paid to your ex she can atually be done for fraud because your daughter isnt actually living with her, CSA thats paid to the mother will also have to be paid back if you can get proof you need, sounds like another gold digging trout, good luck with the csa you need all the luck you can get,

  • Alice says:

    Contact the CHB office asap and provide as much detail as you can to substantiate the fact that CHB is being claimed fraudulently by the mother – if the child is registered with a local GP they maybe able to provide an address for the child, dentist, info the child can provide from the college – if you know the address that the PWC is staying at this can be verified via local council tax records etc.

    If the mother’s chb claim is stopped the family friend with whom the child is staying can apply for CHB to be payable to them – this friend can then apply as a Person with Care for CSA payments from both the child’s mother and father (or a private agreement can be reached if that is acceptable to both the family friend and your partner)

  • lisa says:

    @ Alice, jesus nobody wants the CSA involved, certainly not another person with care applying for CSA from both parents, all out for the money, never mind a young girl has been left with an older family friend and not being treated right, how about give these people an email address take details from the hardest done by and bloody help them instead of giving crap advice on here on how somebody else can give money to the CSA boils my piss, your taking the mick with your last reply

  • chall says:

    Jane,

    Child benefit CAN still be paid to a person if a child lives with somebody else, especially if the person in receipt of such is making a contribution (money or clothes or presents or food) towards the child’s upkeep, by at least the amount of child benefit OR the person who the child’s living with hasn’t made a claim for child benefit.

    Does the mother have an ‘arrangement’ with the family friend where your OH daughter is stays?

    Has the family friend approached your OH and asked for money towards the upkeep of his daughter?

    chall

  • Alice says:

    @ Lisa – if you read the original post it shows that the NRP wishes to pay the family friend and the problem is that the csa are not able (under legislation) to divert the payments from the NRP to the person who is currently providing for the child.

    The advice I gave was relevant to the NRPP’s situation as it informs them what actions they need to take to have the problem rectified

    As Chall says CHB can indeed remain in payment to the mother as it is possible that an agreement is in place between the current PWC (the mother) and the person with whom the child is currently living – however in this case I do not think there is an arrangement as Jane posts

    ‘The main problem is CSA will not re divert the maintence to the family friend who gets no money from the mother for looking after her daughter, we can not afford to pay the friend as we have to pay the mother!’

  • Alice says:

    @ Lisa – further to my previous reply – I question the part in your statement where you say ‘give money to the CSA’ – the money is not ‘given’ to the csa – it is collected by the csa and paid to the parent (or person) with care.

  • lisa says:

    @ Alice, you knew exactly what the last reply was about, dont act stupid,

    “this friend can then apply as a Person with Care for CSA payments from both the child’s mother and father”
    Just so the CSA can take more and more and more, this time not just from one person but 2, this is suppost to be about an innocent lass who has been dumped by her mum to live with a family friend because the mother prefers the boy friends company, no doubt to make more kids to come back to you lot and claim more cash

  • lisa says:

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news//2013/02/18/mum-who-tricked-soldier-into-believing-he-was-her-child-s-dad-is-jailed-91466-32832069/

    Read this, this is the reason why the CSA needs overhauling, new staff cos old ones are incompetent, and biased,

  • Sally says:

    @ chall and Alice – no matter what you say… the ‘real life’ situation is that while the deceitful mother lies and claims the child benefit for the child, the people who actually care are the ones who are left to prove that the PWC is lying!!!!

    So while as chall says “Child benefit CAN still be paid to a person if a child lives with somebody else, especially if the person in receipt of such is making a contribution (money or clothes or presents or food) towards the child’s upkeep, by at least the amount of child benefit OR the person who the child’s living with hasn’t made a claim for child benefit.”

    It will be up to Jane (NOT the CSA, they are too busy shafting PAYE NRP’s) to prove that the mother is fraudulently claiming child benefit because “that is not the ‘responsibility’ of the CSA”….

  • chall says:

    Sally,

    The mothers claim for Child benefit may not be fraudulent under Child Benefit rules. (BTW, I don’t write the rules 😉 )

    There is no reason at all, that I can see, why the person now caring for the child should not apply for Child Benefit and claim CSA from either one or both of the NRP’s – but that is ultimately their decision, and nobody including Jane or the CSA can make them do so.

  • Sally says:

    @ chall – maybe not but in this particular situaion the child is not living with the mother so are you saying that the child benefit rules say that the mother can claim benefits even when the child is not living with her?

    I realise you don’t write the rules but you are just ‘stating’ that “the mothers claim (I am assuming in this particular situation) may not be fraudulent under Child Benefit rules” this would indicate that you know enough FACTS about the child benefit rules to say such a thing….. 😉

    and I completely agree with your last statement whereby the person now caring for the child should apply for child benefit but if (as very often happens) the mother (PWC) lies and says the child lives with her then the CSA will take the claim no further UNLESS the person caring for the child proves the PWC to be a liar…. !?!?!?

    I will repeat what I have said 100 times, the CSA system is unfair and bias towards the PWC… this particular situation (like thousands of others) is completely unfair!!!All Jane is trying to do is to make sure the child is looked after and is financially supported but she is having to do ALL the work herself because “the CSA are unable to help”….

  • Sally says:

    I missed out the work CHILD in my second line … “saying that the child benefit rules say that the mother can claim CHILD benefit even when the child is not… living with her”.

  • Alice says:

    with regards to CHB – it is legal for a person to claim chb when the child is not living with them – situations where a child (such as the child in this case) is living with another person so that they can attend a particular school or college etc allows for the CHB to be paid to the parent and a private agreement made between the CHB claimant and the person with whom the child is living. Equally a parent can continue to claim CHB if the child is attending college and staying in student accommodation and the parent is still supporting them financially.

    The CSA are not in a position to cease the CHB claim, we are not allowed to ask the PWC to provide the proof which would validate a benefit claim – the CHB office are allowed to ask for this information, as they are the agency who are paying the benefit which may or may not be being claimed fraudulently.

    I appreciate the frustration of the parent who wishes to support their child and wants the money to go to the person who is currently looking after the child, but the CSA have no power to investigate the possible chb fraud.

  • Sally says:

    So, are you saying that someone who has their child overnight 2 nights a month can claim child benefit?? And the CSA can’t ask them to validate it?? And this is on the assumption that there is a private agreement in place that you can’t ask the PWC for proof of??

    It this situation, Jane is saying that the CSA payments her partner pays for are going to the childs mother whom she lives with only 2 nights per month, while the daughter lives with a family friend 5 nights a week (with no financial support – hence Jane saying the money is going to the wrong person) and as a result Jane and her partner are having to scrimp and scrape to support the child (because the money is not being paid to the right person)… id take this as clear evidence that the child is not seeing the benefit of the money.. wouldn’t you?? And there is NOTHING the CSA can do??? Because the CSA cannot ask the PWC for proof???

    The CSA are not allowed to ask the PWC for proof that with validate the claim but expect the NRP to pove otherwise to validate their dispute of the PWC claim?? and you ARE allowed to enforce a DEO without any proof that the NRP is paying the PWC privately…. How can that be fair??

    So in plain terms.. What should Jane do to make sure the child gets all the financial support she needs when the PWC refuses to hand over child benefit (which is the core information that determines who the CSA pays the child maintenance to??)

  • Alice says:

    I have called the CHB office this morning for further on this and what they have said is a person can continue to claim chb whilst a child is not living with them due to educational issues – they quoted things like boarding schools etc – as such a fraud investigation may not be the most appropriate action. They have said the best course of action would be for the family friend to make application for CHB, as CHB is already in payment to the mother payments to her would be put on hold whilst they investigate the matter – if the investigation showed that the CHB should be paid to the family friend the mother’s claim for CHB will be ended and CHB will be awarded to the family friend.

    unfortunately the CSA cannot ask the PWC for proof that she is entitled to the CHB – the CHB office can do this as they are the ones who have awarded her the benefit. CSA are obliged to keep the CS case open if they can see that CHB is in payment. CHB is not an automatic requirement for a CSA case – it will be checked if there is a dispute so this in effect is asking the PWC to validate her case for that particular child.

    As previously stated by chall even if the QC is actually living somewhere else CHB can be payable to the PWC as it may be that there is a private agreement between the PWC and the person who is providing the QC with accommodation etc – the CSA are not entitled to ask the PWC to provide proof of this. From Jane’s post it seems there is no private agreement in place between the mother and family friend so the child is not benefiting in this instance.

    Hope this helps

  • j says:

    Hi Jane 15

    Much as I enjoy ‘debating’ points with alice, I think on this occasion her advice on this point is probably accurate.

    All I would add is that if you do follow the advice given then please do come back on here and let us know the results. While alice (and chall) are often correct in their posts, nobody is infallable and alice is quoting information given by another department.

    As an update, chall gave some advice about appeal time limits and stated that such time limits do not apply if the csa committed an ‘error in law’ (a legal position) but try as I might I cannot find any information about this anywhere.

    So even the best of us can make mistakes (eh alice?) and your feedback on the advice given would be welcome. (it does sound right but let us know how you get on)

    Good luck

  • j says:

    PS

    As if by magic…

    Just found this on another thread –

    “wilf on January 20th, 2013 8:58 pm

    Clive:- You need to speak to the Child Benefit Agency on 08453021444 who are administered by the HMRC not the DWP.
    The CSA will back date closure to the new child benefit cease date.”

    May or may not be relevant. (‘The whole thing is immoral’) (name of the post)

  • Alice says:

    from the conversation I had with the CHB office this morning it sounds like there would be a quicker and more thorough investigation if a new application was made by someone else.

    Fraud investigation may be more appropriate if the child was not in full time education – but in this instance that is not the case.

  • Jane says:

    Thank you to everyone for their comments!
    Just to update you all, the mother decided that the child must choose between the parents who she (the daughter) wanted to live with.
    Thank fully she chose us. We are totally disillusioned with the service the CSA and other agencies provide, the money my partner has had deducted from his wage to provide for his daughter has not been spent on her!
    The daughter has hardly any clothes, 1 bra and practically no other underwear, whilst the mother has a new car, wedding rings for her and her new fiance and he has a £400 suit.
    This all makes a mockery of the system, but hey good luck to all who work for the CSA I hope you can all sleep at night with the service you provide – its almost criminal how you abuse the people who want to do right by their children for the lying bitches that are the mothers you always choose to believe! Hope you are so proud!

  • Sally says:

    Hi there, my issue in this instance is not that Alice is providing wrong information… It’s that it always comes back to the same thing… Down to the PWC …

    In this situation the PWC can claim child benefit and expect child maintenance for a child who stays with her 2 nights A MONTH and this is because she can say that she provides for the child but cannot be expected to prove it?… Meanwhile the child and the people who support her financially have to prove otherwise… While incurring the financial costs of that child…

    It would be much easier if the PWC had to complete a questionnaire that filtered their need to involve the CSA in the first place, this would prevent greedy PWC playing the system…. I.e. do they receive regular payments from the NRP (if so, why involve the CSA?), do they realise that when CSAPayments start that there is no legal or financial requirement for the NRP to pay additional money for extras such as clothes etc, this is discretionary… The CSA encourage greed in PWCs….

  • chall says:

    Quote j on February 21st, 2013 11:17 am
    As an update, chall gave some advice about appeal time limits and stated that such time limits do not apply if the csa committed an ‘error in law’ (a legal position) but try as I might I cannot find any information about this anywhere.

    I assume you refer to the post I made on November 9th 2012 @ 2:16 pm, in which I stated ‘official error’ and not an ‘‘error in law’ as you claim.
    https://www.csahell.com/csa-told-i-was-on-the-sick-and-not-earning-but-they-still-want-the-money-as-though-i-was-11751.html

  • j says:

    “chall on February 21st, 2013 I assume you refer to the post I made on November 9th 2012 @ 2:16 pm, in which I stated ‘official error’ and not an ‘‘error in law’ as you claim.
    https://www.csahell.com/csa-told-i-was-on-the-sick-and-not-earning-but-they-still-want-the-mney-as-though-i-was-11751.html”

    Thats it. I forgot the thread it was on. You make the statement but don’t support it. I’ve looked but cant find the ‘rule’ that allows for it –

    ‘However, a time limit does not apply when the Revision is required because of an official error OR misrepresentation of or failure to disclose relevant information by a party of the MC and the new MC would be to the detriment of the party who misrepresented or failed to disclose.’

    I’m even looking at – Rule 23 tribunal procedure (first tier) (social entitlement chamber) Rules 2008, but still cant find it.

    While the statement itself may be valid it has to be supported in law under the rules. I would like to look at where you got that.

  • Alice says:

    Jane, with all due respect, and I appreciate that you and your partner are in a very difficult position and you clearly want to support your step-daughter and provide the relevant financial support while she continues with her education – but the CSA staff are not the ones who are abusing the situation, they are working in accordance with the legislation laid down for them. In this instance it is the PWC who is abusing the system by claiming the CHB and child maintenance and not using it for the benefit of the child. Sadly there are those out there who will claim whatever they are able to and not spend it in a responsible manner – this does not just apply to CSA, there are many people who will claim income support etc and spend the money on themselves and spend very little of it on their children.

    The only advice I can give is to get the family friend with whom your step-daughter is living with to submit an application for CHB asap. Get her to keep a record of the nights the child stays with her, the nights she stays with you and your partner and the nights that she stays with her mother – this would perhaps be considered good evidence to back-up investigation by CHB which will be initiated by her application.

    I really do with you the best of luck in getting this sorted soon

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